A Dialog With Scott on the Clarity of God's Call to Repentence

it's a peculiar God who would expect any human being who wants to truly understand his divine word and instructions to become literate in ancient Hebrew in order to do so. If one thinks God was the ultimate author of this story that is.

It's perfectly consistent with a God who makes the plan of salvation both simple and centered on faith. That is, what you know about who He is gives you confidence that there is a solution for the things that are a mystery to you. And I don't see the God of scripture making His truths easy to understand because they are for those who love the truth enough to seek it out even when its hard. I think its a misconception to think He wants to make it so easy to find that some person who has little to no interest in it can't help but see it.

A "simple" plan of salvation? What's simple about this:- Have a plan of ultimate salvation that is of utmost importance to every human being who will ever live, whom you love and cherish more deeply than they can ever know.- Say nothing to humanity about it for the first two hundred thousand years humans walk the Earth, as they struggle in ignorance and misery.- Eventually reveal that plan in bits and pieces not to, say, the Chinese, who are the most populous and most literate at the time, but to an isolated desert tribe. Don't even consider revealing it to everyone at once.- Know that human beings speak many languages, but reveal the plan only in one or two of them, languages that you know will not be read or spoken by most of the human beings who will later be born.- Leave the plan not on indestructible material, but on fragile parchments destined to decay or be destroyed. In some cases, such as the vital life story of your own incarnation and ultimate act of redemption on Earth, don't bother writing it down. Let it be passed by word of mouth for several decades first.- Over the next several thousand years, watch as humans argue, fight, and slaughter each other over the details and meaning of the plan, as they distort, misinterpret, exploit, miscopy, and mistranslate it. Do nothing while this happens.- When someone from a rural village in Africa dies and stands before your throne in judgement, having spent much of their life simply walking for hours daily to get clean water, tell them that your desires were clear and perhaps they should have taken some time out to go learn to read ancient Hebrew so they would have known what you wanted of them. Deny them admittance into Heaven.

What utter nonsense. There are already plenty of ways in which faith in God is already said to be a challenge, like succumbing to temptation, dealing with adversity, or being distracted by wealth, and those at least have some halfway sensible arguments behind them (some, not all). But to say that God intentionally expects everyone to learn to read Hebrew just to understand what he has to say to us in the first place is the height of absurdity. No cosmic being of such bumbling incompetence and stupidity, or perverse maliciousness, exists. And on the slight chance that one does, it is by this utter failure of communication undeserving of worship.
 

What is simple about it is that God saves those who trust Him over their own righteousness regardless of whether they have access to any of that other information. Abraham didn't have most of that stuff on your list, yet he "believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness." Nothing has changed since the Garden of Eden. It has always been about whether we would trust God or decide for ourselves what is good and what is evil. That's the real message of the Book.

Putting aside for the moment your total inability to actually know any of that, let's work with that idea. So we don't actually need any of the Bible at all, since even people who have been unable to read it will still be judged fairly. That's good to know, but it raises some additional puzzles. Why would God bother with inspiring the writing (and assembly, and editing) of divine commands, plans, and other revelations that we now know are not only incompetently executed (for the purpose of clear communication to all of humanity) but also unnecessary? Whence comes "The Great Commission," the imperative in Acts and other New Testament books to go unto the world and proclaim the Gospel? It's obviously a pointless exercise as far as actual salvation goes, since you tell us that having understood the Bible correctly in its original languages isn't required. I guess it must just be a general information campaign then? But the issue of incompetent communication still sticks to that. Even if spreading the Word is just about giving people useful but optional background information, that information is STILL misunderstood, mistranslated, miscopied, exploited, fought over, and treated by many AS IF people really do need it for salvation. And God doesn't consider this a misunderstanding worth clearing up, it seems.

But as I mentioned at the start of this comment, you have no means of knowing such things about God anyhow. It's a fabricated backpedal in the face of obvious evidence against the God you believe in, to try and wave this evidence away and claim the point doesn't matter in the first place. Were there actually an omnipotent God with an intent to communicate anything at all to all of humanity, it would do so in ways that were unambiguous, universally received, and unaffected by the passage of time or the failings of its recipients. Having Jesus make himself literate and writing down a single unalterable, imperishable, and indisputable account of his own life as it happened would be the barest minimum we should expect from this effort. We have nothing close to this. Such a being doesn't exist.

Since God doesn't conduct His affairs the way to your approval He must not exist? That's your argument? It's awful. It would be one thing if God said in scripture "I am going to make all of this plain so that anyone can see it even without trying". But He says the exact opposite. He speaks in parables just so they wouldn't get it unless they really sought it out. The true measure is not to compare what happened in human history to the way YOU think God ought to behave, but rather if how He says in His word that He operates is consistent with what we see. But to do that you would have to consult scripture, not your own gut. For this one though, I'll do it for you.. Ephesians 3:4-9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, 1 Corinthians 2:7 Verse Concepts but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; Colossians 1:25-27 that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Ephesians 1:9-10 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him Colossians 2:2 Verse Concepts that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God’s mystery, that is, Christ Himself, Revelation 10:7 Verse Concepts but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets. Mark 4:11 Verse Concepts And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.  The conclusion is that most truth is not easy to find. It is meant, not even for the wise, but for those who love it.

Since God doesn't conduct His affairs the way to your approval He must not exist?Where did I say anything about my approval? I'm talking about what's likely, given what you and other believers claim about God. I'm told:- God is omnipotent, which includes intelligence and competence in carrying out asserted goals or plans- God loves all human beings- God is eternal- God consciously desires to communicate certain plans, commands, choices, and other information to ALL human beings, not just for casual interest but because we need to know it From those claims we should expect that communication to be carried out in a way that is clear, unambiguous, universally received and understood by all human beings (past, present, and future), and unalterable or distortable by the passage of time, by human error, or by purposeful human effort. This is basic logic about clearly understandable claims and evidence, just like if someone claimed there was a shooting in a certain place then the police would expect to find bullets, empty shells, or similar evidence that is expected at such scenes. If they don't find it, the occurrence of a shooting becomes less likely. Likewise, the lack of unambiguous, clear, and universal communication from God makes one or more of those claimed traits far less likely, which is to say a being with all those traits likely doesn't exist.

Those claims I just listed are virtually universally held among Christians, so you can't just pretend nobody's ever made them while you're pasting your convenient list of verses which contradict them. If God is ENTIRELY mysterious, as you're trying to imply as a way of dodging what I've pointed out previously, then you'll have to square that somehow with the very non-mysterious claims about God I just cited. The fact of the matter here is that like many Christians before you, you're pulling the "God is mysterious" card only when you're backed into a corner and don't want to give up any of the core non-mysterious claims about God you want to hold on to. God is loving...except when he appears to do non-loving things, which is just a "mysterious" kind of love we don't understand. God wants to communicate to us and have a relationship with us...except when he has a mysterious reason for remaining silent. God is creative, inventive, and intelligent...except when he has mysterious reasons for appearing to be an incompetent, inattentive bumbler. God hates evil...except that he lets it slide all the time, for mysterious reasons. Sorry, it doesn't wash. How handy to have a reusable "get out of jail free" card for God labeled "mystery", except that you believers are the only ones who swallow such obvious "just because" reasoning. A being which has a whole set of very specific, understandable, predictable, and well-defined traits and yet also doesn't behave according to them, for reasons no one can enumerate or give evidence for, is a bizarre being indeed. That bizarreness, by definition, makes his existence even less likely. 

God consciously desires to communicate certain plans, commands, choices, and other information to ALL human beings, not just for casual interest but because we need to know it

Key word, certain plans. Salvation through faith has been around for a long time. Longer than the crucifixion, which was a clear and purposeful and universally understandable message that 1) our sins are serious, more serious than we can atone for in our own strength, and 2) He loves us enough that He will live the life of faith and obedience that we could not while taking in Himself the penalty due us. And only by this accounting can God be both infinitely just and infinitely merciful. So I don't say "God is entirely mysterious". You said I claimed that, but its not what I said. There are things we know about Him. But at the same time, His ways are beyond our ways. In particular those who don't want to know Him do not get shown what those who do want to know him get shown. If you gave your intimate life details to every girl who passed by what would your sweetheart think? What would the girls think? Some truths are reserved for those who treasure them. Salvation is simple. It's not easy because it forces us to be honest with ourselves that He is holy and we are not, but its simple. But we will never know Him fully this side of the vail. And that's OK. He's God after all, are we supposed to completely understand His ways without mystery before we trust Him? Surely nothing has changed since the garden. We are willing to trade paradise for the ability to judge for ourselves what is good and what is evil.

First, I accept your correction on saying God is entirely mysterious. I shouldn't have summarized your comments that way. What I probably should have said is that you're taking aspects of God's nature (as claimed by Christians) that are almost universally given very clear and non-mysterious descriptors, but then adding extra unspecified and unsupported mystery to them when our experience of the world contradicts them. "God has a message of redemption for all people." There's nothing mysterious about that, or about God's omnipotence, which should carry with it the capability to actually get that message out to ALL people in an effective way. Pausing there for a moment, if God also has truly mysterious plans that have nothing to do with that, like mysterious plans for black holes, or a different redemption plan for a species on another planet, I could make no logical objection to that other than to say you have no way of knowing even that fact. But those aren't the plans we're concerned with here.

When we face the fact that God is obviously not, and has not been, communicating that message of redemption effectively to all people (by what an omnipotent being should be able to do), the conclusion is not that God also has a mysterious reason for neglecting to communicate effectively, but that he either doesn't actually have that desire, or isn't capable of carrying it out, or both. The only way for us to hang on to those two non-mysterious claims about him is if you were to produce actual evidence or proof of whatever mysterious quirk prevents God from living up to those descriptions. 

All I'm doing here is what we all do with people around us all the time: watch their behavior and from that build up a sense of what they are really like, from repeated experience. If you have a co-worker who hardly ever talks to anyone and rebuffs attempts at friendship, you're not going to mentally label them as "really outgoing, but with a mysterious reason for not talking to anyone"; you're just going to label them as anti-social. Now if someone reveals to you that for the last three months that normally outgoing person has been going through a divorce and has been given a high-pressure project by the boss, well there's the reason and you might then accept the claim of them being really outgoing, under normal circumstances. But you have to prove that the mysterious reason is actually there. Until you do, you have to expect people to push back on you when you call something a duck that never looks like a duck, swims like a duck, or quacks like a duck.

Someone accepts correction on a You Tube discussion thread? I am glad I was sitting down when I read that! Thank you for the teachable attitude. It is the only way any of us can get better, but most won't accept the cost getting better if it involves admitting they were wrong in the first place. If they did, we'd have a lot more Christians, and the ones we had would be better Christians. Now you write God is obviously not, and has not been, communicating that message of redemption effectively to all people (by what an omnipotent being should be able to do), the conclusion is not that God also has a mysterious reason for neglecting to communicate effectively, but that he either doesn't actually have that desire, or isn't capable of carrying it out, or both. Well its been the largest religion in the world for the last 1,000 years so its not like He's Thor or whoever ran things in Zoroastrianism. But I think your complaint is that ALL people are not getting the message, but only a relative few compared to the total number of people, and that this indicates that God is either not that caring or not that powerful. I believe your conclusion leaves out possibilities, and not just possibilities but those which comport with just the scenario that the Holy Writ describes. One is your assumption that God wants to communicate effectively His message of salvation to every human being. The scripture only teaches that He "desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." But there is a difference between being all powerful and using that power to over-ride the free will of all humans. IE- He gives up what He desires out of respect for the choices of the people who have no love for the truth and thus would not want to spend an eternity in His presence, for His Word is Truth. He desires them to be saved, and permits them to be saved, but that is not the same thing as compelling them to be saved. And the evidence from scripture is that He knows who many if not all of these people are. They are not interested in truth but if the evidence was too "in their face" maybe they would be compelled by the evidence to accept His goodness even if they hated to admit it. And so when speaking to such people He deliberately obscures the message lest people who hated truth had it shoved into their faces anyway. See Matthew 13:12-15 for a perfect example. Another good one is the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man near the end of Luke chapter 16. The rich man in hell is making the same argument you are. That his brothers would turn around and love the truth if only the message were presented clearer and more starkly. Father Abraham denies this, saying if they would not listen to the prophets they would not listen even if someone rose from the dead. This is a pretty consistent trait even back in the OT. In fact the Matthew passage is quoting from the OT. I think the classic example is Pharaoh. At the first miracles, he hardened his heart. But God kept the miracles coming to the point where he couldn't resist the truth of God anymore even if he tried with all his might. But he wasn't a man who loved the truth, he was just being forced to see it in a way that he lacked the will to resist in his own strength. So subsequently scripture records that God hardened Pharaoh's heart! God was like "I am going to show how powerful I am through your refusal to heed me, but that's going to give you something that you don't really want- seeing my greatness. So I am going to use my power to PREVENT you from seeing it even though in yourself you would have been compelled to." So though I think your reasoning would stand if your premises were correct, the premises you are reasoning from don't fit those that are laid out in scripture. Your conclusions are not invalid to some conceptions of God, but they don't apply to the God of the Bible. There are some people He knows are no good before they are even born, and whatever His desires for them, they are going to go a different way. So it is written "Jacob I loved but Esau I hated." So God is as effective as He wants to be in communicating His message. And billions of humans have gotten the message with far less opportunity to do so than you or I and its not over yet. Sometimes He sent His prophets to pester people with the truth about themselves that they hated to hear, and they mostly killed and persecuted them. So most of the time, His SOP, is that He does not do that. If we sincerely want to know Him He will move heaven and earth to introduce Himself, But that does not mean that He is in the habit of wasting energy proving Himself before a heart which has no real desire for Him to be real. He is not the beggar here, we are. Those who recognize that, He makes into kings.  Now I could say a lot, and do say a lot in my book, about what Yahweh went through in His dealings with man. He was hurt deeply by the attitude of people when He only meant to do them good. It's in the pages of the book for all who care to see it. So there is some of what you write about in there.